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Interesting debate on PBS NewsHour
Dueling Books Reignite Debate Over Israeli Lobby in
United States
PBS NewsHour
Originally Aired: October 9, 2007
Debate
text link:
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/middle_east/july-dec07/israel_10-09.html
audio link:
http://www.pbs.org/perl/media.cgir?t=rp&f=virage/newshour/pbsnh100907_220k.rm&s=2488516&e=3162536&extn=.ram
Two books examining the Israeli lobby in the U.S.,
"The Israel Lobby and U.S. Foreign Policy," and "The
Deadliest Lies," present opposing views on Israel's
influence among U.S. policymakers. Authors John
Mearsheimer and Abraham Foxman detail their stances.
MARGARET WARNER: A year ago, two American political
scientists raised a storm with an article asserting
that Israel and its supporters in the United States
have far too much influence over American policy. The
fight is still going on now in the pages of two books.
"The Israel Lobby and U.S. Foreign Policy" is the work
of John Mearsheimer, a professor at the University of
Chicago, and Steven Walt, a professor at Harvard.
They argue that Israel enjoys an extraordinary level
of U.S. support that is now proving a, quote,
"strategic liability," closed quote, to U.S. interests
in the world. And this outside support, they say, is,
quote, "due largely to the
political power of the Israel lobby, led by groups
like the American-Israel
political action committee, or AIPAC.
"The Deadliest Lies" is the title of a rebuttal book
by Abraham Foxman, director
of the Anti-Defamation League. He calls the
Mearsheimer-Walt book "explosive and
inflammatory" and says it is based on, quote,
"half-truths, distortions and
falsehoods."
We bring the two together now, Professor Mearsheimer
joining me here, and Mr.
Foxman in New York. And welcome to you both.
John Mearsheimer, first, before we really get into
this, define your term. What
do you mean by "Israel lobby"?
JOHN MEARSHEIMER, University of Chicago: The Israel
lobby, Margaret, is a loose
coalition of individuals and groups who worked
actively to push American foreign
policy in a pro-Israel direction. It's an American
interest group along the lines
of the National Rifle Association or the American
Association for Retired People.
MARGARET WARNER: So what's your evidence that it is
distorting American foreign
policy in a way that is jeopardizing U.S. security and
that it has the degree of
influence that it can do so?
JOHN MEARSHEIMER: Well, probably the best example
would be U.S. policy on the
settlements in the occupied territories. Every
American president since Lyndon
Johnson in 1967 has opposed, at least officially
opposed, the building of
settlements in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip.
Nevertheless, no American president has been able to
put any serious pressure on
the Israelis to stop that settlement-building. even
though there's lots of
evidence that that has been one of the principal
reasons that the United States
is deeply disliked around the world, and it is one of
the causes -- not the only
cause -- but one of the causes of our terrorism
problem.
And the reason, of course, that no president can put
any meaningful pressure on
the Israelis is because of the Israel lobby.
Israel lobby's role in Iraq war
MARGARET WARNER: So, Mr. Foxman, what is the deadly
lie, to use your phrase, that
you believe these authors are promoting here?
ABRAHAM FOXMAN, Director, Anti-Defamation League: The
deadly lie is the concept
that Jews, wherever they are, disproportionately
control government means of
media in order to promote their interests.
Mearsheimer and Walt in their book basically say that
the lobby, which is I guess
all those American Jews and some Zionist Christians
who support Israel, distort
what is America's interest, distort what is in the
best interest of the United
States, in order to serve the interests of Israel and
support of Israel.
And they go as far as saying that -- in their magazine
article originally, they
said that it was because of the Israel lobby that
America went to war in Iraq.
They've sort of adjusted it in their book, and they
say, "If not for the Israel
lobby, America would not be at war," and basically
saying the American Jews so
control the American government, the administration
and Congress and media, that
it brought about America's entry into the Iraq war,
which is against the interest
of the United States.
MARGARET WARNER: Let me read you the exact quote, Mr.
Mearsheimer. You say that,
"The war was motivated, at least in good part, by a
desire to make Israel more
secure." And you go on to say, "The war would almost
certainly not have occurred
had it" -- the Israel lobby -- "been absent."
What is your evidence for that? Because in reading
your book, I have to say, I
didn't see any quotes from people in the
administration saying, "You know, this
was a big factor when we sat around the table."
JOHN MEARSHEIMER: Well, first of all, it's quite clear
that the government of
Israel pushed very hard for the war. Furthermore, it's
very clear...
ABRAHAM FOXMAN: It's not clear, but...
JOHN MEARSHEIMER: ... that the principal institutions
in the lobby, to include
AIPAC, pushed for the war. Now that the war has gone
south, a number of Israel's
supporters have argued that that's not the case, that
the lobby did not push for
the war. But there's all sorts of evidence that
organizations like AIPAC did push
for the war.
And, furthermore, the neoconservatives who are deeply
committed to Israeli
security, as well as American security, were among the
principal force-drivers
behind this war.
And when you add all of that up, it's quite clear that
one of the principal
reasons -- not the only reason, but one of the
principal reasons -- that the
United States went to war against Iraq was because of
the Israel lobby and Israel
itself pushing for it.
Opposition to the war
MARGARET WARNER: And, Foxman, do you dispute that?
ABRAHAM FOXMAN: That's absolute nonsense. First of
all, either it is the lobby
that forced the war or it isn't. And now we've heard
several versions of it.
If Mearsheimer and Walt were engaged in an honest
research and scholarship, they
would have found that, number one, the overwhelming
majority of American-Jews
since before the war to this day are opposed to the
war. I am part of the lobby,
the Anti-Defamation League is, and all that we did is,
after the president
declared war with Congress, we issued a statement
supporting the president's war
against terror. AIPAC did the same.
That is nothing close to the type of lobbying that
Mearsheimer and Walt claim
that the Jewish community and the Israel lobby engaged
in.
But Israel, again, had they done their research not
selectively, not skewed, they
would have found that Prime Minister Sharon advised
this administration that he
felt that the threat is Iran, not Iraq.
And now we're being told, Margaret, this is only a
precursor. The people who
brought you the Iraq war, the Israel lobby, the Jewish
supporters, are now going
to bring you the Iran war. So this is a precursor in
terms of the canards, that
the American-Jewish community, the Israel lobby, which
is part and parcel in
their definition, are the ones who are pushing America
again to war, against
America's interest, against the best interests of the
United States.
MARGARET WARNER: Your book does, in fact, argue that
now the Israel lobby is
pushing for conflict with Iran?
JOHN MEARSHEIMER: Can I respond to a number of the
points that Mr. Foxman made?
AIPAC's involvement on Capitol Hill
MARGARET WARNER: Please.
JOHN MEARSHEIMER: First of all, we make it very clear
in the book that the American-Jewish community was
more opposed to the war than the American body
politic at large. We agree with what he says. He's
misrepresenting the argument
here.
Our claim is that the Israel lobby, which is not the
Jewish lobby and is not the
American-Jewish community, was pushing for the war.
With regard to AIPAC, there
is hard evidence that AIPAC was pushing for the war.
Howard Kohr, who is the executive director of AIPAC,
told the New York Sun in
January 2003 that one of his most important
accomplishments for the previous year
was quietly pushing for the war in Iraq up on Capitol
Hill. So there is evidence
that AIPAC was in favor of the war.
ABRAHAM FOXMAN: It's bad scholarship to quote a -- one
quote in the New York Sun
by the spokesman of AIPAC. Based on that, I hardly
believe the United States
government would be convinced to go to war.
MARGARET WARNER: Can we go onto what the other point
Mr. Foxman made, which is
that now the, quote, "Israel lobby" is pushing for
conflict with Iran?
JOHN MEARSHEIMER: Well, if you look around the world,
there's only one country
that is actively pushing the United States to
seriously consider military action
against Iran, and that country is Israel. Not only its
leaders, but its
population is in favor of using military force against
Iran, if necessary.
Furthermore, if you look at who the voices are inside
the United States who are
pushing for using military force against Iran, it's
essentially the same cast of
characters who pushed for war against Iraq. And most
of those people, certainly
not all of them, but most of them are in the lobby.
Legacy of anti-Semitism
MARGARET WARNER: Mr. Foxman, I'd like to ask you about
a quote in your book. And
you say that, speaking of Mearsheimer and Walt, you
say that the book "supports
myths and beliefs that anti-Semites have peddled for
centuries, thereby giving
aid and comfort to some of the most despicable people
in our society." That's
tough stuff. What are you saying there?
ABRAHAM FOXMAN: Well, Margaret, I have, despite the
accusation, never accused
Mearsheimer or Walt of being anti-Semites, nor have we
ever tried to stifle their
debate. But when one cherry-picks and selects events
of recent history and piles
it on to prove and to show that the Israel lobby,
i.e., the Jewish community or
those in the Jewish community who support Israel, have
power beyond their
numbers, that they control, they manipulate the
American government, in fact,
bringing them to war, they control media, because you
can't debate these issues.
These are classic anti-Semitic canards, where Jews
have been accused of being
responsible for the plague, being responsible for
World War I, World War II. We
heard it from Pat Buchanan and David Duke in the first
Gulf War.
Any time that things go wrong, you scapegoat. And Jews
have been scapegoated,
especially blamed for wars and calamities. And what
this book does in a very
sophisticated manner is say, "Well, Israel is not a
moral country. It's not
really a democratic country. It really doesn't deserve
our support because of the
way they treat the Palestinians. And Israel is not
really in our interest."
So why is it that the United States continues to
support Israel? By the way, yes,
Israel gets $3 billion a year. So does Egypt get $2
billion a year. What about
the oil lobby? Nobody is asking those questions.
MARGARET WARNER: What do you say to that?
JOHN MEARSHEIMER: I think that's true, that his
description of that kind of
behavior is an old anti-Semitic canard. But the
problem is that we didn't say any
such thing in our book.
We're not talking about a cabal or a conspiracy, and
we make that point very
clear. The Israel lobby is an interest group. And it
operates in a rich American
tradition, which is built around interest group
politics. It's like the National
Rifle Association or the American Association of
Retired People.
MARGARET WARNER: All right, I'm sorry. We have to
leave it there. Thank you both.
JOHN MEARSHEIMER: You're welcome.
JIM LEHRER: Abraham Foxman and John Mearsheimer will
answer your questions about
the Israel lobby in an online forum. To participate,
go to our Web site at
PBS.org.
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